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ALL WORLD WARS
INTERROGATION OF HERMANN GOERING, REICHSMARSHALL, COMMANDER-IN-CHIEF OF THE GERMAN AIR FORCE
Mondorf Resort, Luxembourg, June 1945
Interrogation of Goering Hermann Wilhelm, 52, Reichsmarschall, Commander-in-Chief of the German Air Force, member of the Nazi Party since 1922.
Mondorf Resort, Luxembourg
June 1945
Question: When did you become aware of Hitler's military plans against the Soviet Union?
Answer: I became aware of these plans between one and a half to two months before the start of the war.
Question: We have accurate data that Hitler issued an order to prepare for a war against the USSR in November 1940 and that this order was sent out to the commanders-in-chief of the land army, the navy, and the air force. As the Reich Marshal of Aviation, would not you be supposed to receive this order?
Answer: I cannot remember when I became aware of preparations for the war against the USSR, but, recalling the circumstances of the fall of 1940, I can say the following:
1. At that time, indeed, an order to be ready for war existed, but it had nothing to do with Russia. It was about capturing Gibraltar with the passage of our troops through Spain. This operation was thoroughly prepared, but, unfortunately, we abandoned it afterward.
2 I spent Christmas in 1940 with my children and household members in Romania, about 200 miles from the Russian border. If I knew of the proposed military actions against the Soviet Union, I would hardly have decided to go with my whole family to Romania, which is very close to the Soviet border.
These two circumstances make me doubt that there was an order to prepare for war with the Soviet Union in the fall of 1940. Under all circumstances, if such orders were prepared, I would have known about it no later than two weeks before the signing.
Question: What was your attitude towards the German attack on the Soviet Union?
Answer: I always opposed the war with Russia. When I learned about Hitler's military plans against the USSR, I was horrified. All aviation was thrown to the West and acted against the British at that time. The tasks facing our aviation were far from complete, and in the event of war with Russia, we would have to transfer about half of the planes to the Eastern Front. I have repeatedly tried to dissuade the Fuhrer from his intentions to fight the USSR, but the Fuhrer was obsessed with the war against Russia, and I could not deter him. I thought that the war against the USSR was inexpedient.
Question: How does this point of view fit with your numerous statements of hatred of the Soviet Union and its defeat to be imminent?
Answer: If you could show me at least one of my speeches made in this spirit, it would surprise me. It was not about hatred or love for the Soviet Union but rather about such a war's suitability. I thought that it was unwise to fight the USSR. At the same time, I was always an opponent of your worldview. But it's one thing to oppose the war with the Soviet Union and another to express a common opinion in the press. After the Fuhrer started the war, my duty was to do everything to win this war. I have always considered Stalin a great adversary.
Question: Have you ever been on the Eastern Front?
Answer: I was in Russia very briefly. I know only one Russian city, Vinnitsa. I came to Vinnitsa, not for military affairs, but because I was interested in theatrical performing here.
Question: Is it true that you swore that not a single bomb would fall on Berlin?
Answer: The enemy's propaganda invented all these statements. I just said that I would do everything in my power that not a single bomb would fall on Berlin. Additionally, I said that it would happen when we have complete air superiority.
Question: What role did you play in the party?
Answer: Until 1928, I was in the SA; from 1923 to 1928, I was abroad. In 1928 I came to Germany again, but I did not work for the party anymore. In 1928, I became a deputy to the Reichstag. In 1930-1931, my position in the party became more significant. I played a big role in Reichstag. From 1931 to 1933, I was a political representative of the Führer and played an essential role in negotiating with other organizations and abroad. I played a decisive role in forming the government since I was on good terms with Hindenburg.
Question: In recent years, have government and party issues been coordinated with you?
Answer: State issues, yes, the party issues, no. I did not occupy any positions in the party, but as the State's second person, I played a prominent part in resolving state issues. I did not interfere in the party hierarchy since I held six or seven government posts, and I already had enough work on my hands.
Since Bormann, my strongest opponent, took the post of the secretary of the Reich Chancellery, I have entirely ceased to be involved in the party's affairs. I was completely cut off from party life in 1943. Never, even in the most influential years of my life, did I enjoy such an influence on Hitler as Bormann. We called Bormann "a little secretary, a great schemer, and a dirty pig." I learned about the party's decisions after the fact. Since Bormann came, I have only once made a report at a meeting of the gauleiters on the air situation.
My position in the party rested solely on my authority and my post as Hitler's successor.
Question: What was your relationship with Hitler?
Answer: My relationship with the Fuhrer was excellent until 1941. During the war, they continually worsened until they collapsed completely.
Question: What do you mean by saying that your relationship with Hitler collapsed?
Answer: I mean that Hitler removed me from the office, expelled me from the party, and sentenced me to death. On April 22, Hitler declared that he would remain in Berlin and die there. That evening the Fuhrer first talked about the possibility of defeat. He was furious and stated that his closest associates had betrayed him. One of the generals asked him whether the Western Front troops should not be transferred to the East and defend Berlin against the Russians? Hitler replied: "Let the Reich marshal solve this question. “The general said: "But, probably, the army will not want to fight under the Goering's command." Hitler replied: "Are you going to continue to fight? It's useless. We have to compromise, and Goering will do it better than me." Then Hitler ordered most of the military to fly to Southern Germany. Among them was the Chief of Staff of the Air Force Koller, who, after that, came to see me and told me about that.
After Koller's visit, I called Dr. Lammers and asked him if I should take power into my own hands because of the circumstances. We decided that I would telegraph to Berlin and ask for instructions. I sent a telegram with the following content: "Since you have decided to stay in Berlin, please inform me whether your will comes into force that I am the successor and whether I can have freedom of actions in the matters of domestic and foreign policy, as required by the interests of the State. If I don't get an answer before 10 pm, I will have to assume that you are not free in your decisions, and I will act independently". Later, I suggested a response time at midnight.
My antipode Borman was sitting in Berlin and reported my telegram to Hitler in such a way that I supposedly was plotting against Hitler. At 6 pm, I received the answer that the previous order was not valid, and Hitler would not appoint me as his successor. At 8 pm, a group of SS-men arrived, and they stated that they were arresting my family and myself. The next day, at 9 am, the Obersturmbannführer, the head of the SS in Obersalzberg, Dr. Frank, came to me and read the following Hitler's telegram sent to me: "By your behavior and your actions you betrayed me and the cause of national socialism. The punishment for this is death. For your excellent services in the past, under the specious excuse of a severe illness, I am removing you from the post of commander-in-chief of the air force."
The next day, the radio reported that I had resigned because of a severe illness. The people, of course, laughed because no one believed it. The SS received the following order from Bormann: "When the crisis in Berlin reaches its apogee, then, by order of the Fuhrer, SS is to shoot the Reich Marshal and his entourage. SS, you have to perform this duty with honor. Martin Bormann." However, the SS would not intend to shoot me. They considered this order not to be the order of the Fuhrer but merely the wishful thinking of "my friend" Bormann. It was a completely insane decision. They went crazy in the bunker and ceased to be the masters of their actions. On April 24, I was arrested by Bormann and his men. On May 4-5, my pilots, flying over Mutendorf, where the SS detained us, attacked guards, and freed me.
The deterioration of the relations between the Fuhrer and myself began in 1941. We had disagreements on the use of aviation on the Eastern Front. In connection with the military actions against the USSR, the Fuhrer suggested dividing aviation into two parts. I disagreed, saying that aviation was necessary to fight against the British. Before this, the Fuhrer had never interfered in aviation affairs. Now it has begun. He was ordering aviation units to be sent here and there, often without need. I objected to him, stating that I should know what tasks he assigned them in each operation.
When a critical situation for our troops developed at Stalingrad, the Fuhrer summoned me. The question was whether the Army would remain there or whether it had to retreat. The Fuhrer asked me if it was possible to ensure 500 tons of cargo per day to the troops in Stalingrad. Later he reduced this figure to 300 tons. I replied that this would be possible only if the weather permits the flying all the time and if our Stalingrad troops hold airfields in their hands.
Hitler ordered to transfer all transport aircraft, even training units, to deliver supplies to Stalingrad. What I was most afraid of came about: dangerous atmospheric conditions, icing, blizzards, and snowstorms. Our aircraft suffered heavy losses. Then the Fuhrer ordered to divert all bomber aircraft to transport weapons and ammunition. Bomber aviation was my brainchild; I created it from scratch. Bomber crews were the best I had, and I could not condemn them to death. Hitler ordered Field Marshal Milch to act independently over my head and use the aircraft at his discretion.
Question: What is your opinion about Hitler?
Answer: Hitler was, in my opinion, a brilliant strategist; he was the best expert on the armies of all countries, but he did not want to learn all the intricacies of aviation and air war, so he made the wrong decisions in the field of aviation. Also, Hitler did not tolerate failures; they brought him out of himself. His military and strategic plans were brilliant, and if the generals carried them out on the Eastern Front, the Germans would have won.
There were other differences between us. Keep in mind that field aviation divisions were formed in the winter of 1942. Suddenly I received an order to send 200,000 pilots to such divisions. I demanded that these people, who never fought on the ground, undergo appropriate training, receive artillery, etc. It was promised to me. However, after a few days, they threw my field divisions into the battle without preparation. They were all killed, which put me in an awkward position in front of my flight personnel.
I formed the paratroop division, which was necessary for specific battle tasks. I paid much attention to these troops and personally trained them. I know that the Soviet authorities praised this division. Suddenly the division was demanded to join the ground battles in the Smolensk region. For me, perhaps, It was the most powerful blow.
Fundamental differences between the Fuhrer and myself arose in the possibility of starting negotiations with the Allies. I had repeatedly offered to enter into the peace talks with one of the countries since I assumed it was no longer possible to win by military means. Hitler categorically rejected my suggestions. The mentioning of the word "negotiations" in my telegram to Hitler probably played a decisive role since it reminded Hitler of all the differences that existed between us.
The relationship between us deteriorated further during the intensification of Allied air raids. Hitler interfered with the area of fighter aircraft, offering fantastic things, such as the need to install heavy guns on the fighters, appoint specially authorized commanders, etc.
Question: When did it become clear to you that Germany lost the war?
Answer: I have first doubts about the war's outcome after the Allied armies invaded the West. The breakthrough of the Russian troops on the Vistula and the simultaneous advance of the Allied forces in the West were the first dangerous signals for me. After the stabilization of the front in the West, I regained hope. I thought that with the stabilization of the Western Front and the delay in advance of the Red Army on the Vistula, we would be able to force the production of turbine fighters, armed with six guns and 24 missiles. This improvement would make it possible to eliminate air raids on Germany. In this situation, we could restore communications and industry and launch the production of new weapons.
Question: What can you say about the situation at Hitler's headquarters immediately preceding the capitulation?
Answer: I cannot say anything about this matter because until April 20, if anyone thought that there could be no victory, no one dared to express these thoughts. It was forbidden to talk about surrender. Before April 20, Hitler spoke of the possibility of bringing about a victory in the war.
To understand this, one must consider the events of July 20, 1944. As a result of the assassination attempt, Hitler received a severe shock. He was the only one who survived, who did not go to the hospital. That same evening Hitler received Mussolini, and on the same day, the Fuhrer spoke on the radio. He went to bed only five days later and stayed there for two days. After the assassination attempt, he changed considerably; he was losing his balance, a trembling in his arms and legs appeared, clarity of thought was lost. Since then, Hitler has ceased to leave the bunker altogether, has not been in the open air because his eyes hurt in the bright daylight. He became very decisive, handed down death sentences without hesitation, and did not trust anyone.
Bormann was called the Fuhrer's "Mephistopheles." When there was a discussion of the military situation, as soon as Bormann put a note on the Fuhrer's table discrediting this or that general, it was enough for the person to fall out of favor.
Question: How can you explain the increased authority of Himmler in recent years?
Answer: As soon as my authority began to fall, the power of that person who occupied the next place after myself started to increase. I was considered a conservative. The more radical Hitler and his policies became, the more he needed extreme people. You can not implement radical plans without the help of the radicals.
When Hitler entrusted Himmler with the command of the Vistula Army Group, we thought the whole world went crazy. The following relations existed between Himmler and me: he sought to occupy my position. He assured me of his friendship, while at the same time, he conducted clandestine work against me. I also told him that I was kind to him, but I was always alert.
Question: What do you know about Himmler's fate?
Answer: I know only what was in the newspapers. If Himmler died, I do not doubt that he would be a devil in the next world and not an angel.
Question: What role in all these intrigues did Goebbels play?
Answer: Goebbels was very closely associated with Hitler. He was a brilliant man, exceptionally able, but very ambitious. Goebbels was a political opponent of Bormann but knew how to tackle him. We called him "the ship's boat" because he knew whose fairway to follow. Relations with us were good, but not close. He was an intelligent man and could not mistreat Hitler's successor.
A year and a half ago, it became known about my bad relationship with the Fuhrer, and the head of the Reichs Chancellery asked the Fuhrer if I was still his successor. Hitler replied that now if he had to appoint a successor for himself, he would not select Goering, but since that had been done already, and it became rooted in the people's consciousness, he would not change his decision.
Question: What can you tell about the underground organizations created by the Hitler government to carry out subversive work in Germany after its occupation by Allied forces?
Answer: It could have been a question of the occupied areas and not of the whole of Germany since Hitler did not allow anyone to think about the complete occupation. He formed the Adolf Hitler Free Corps from the most active party functionaries in late March. I know they should have waged an armed struggle against the occupiers, but I am not aware of what they have accomplished.
Ley was appointed as the Corps commander. It was equivalent to the fact that nothing would come of it. Ley is an old fool, and it's enough to read his articles in the newspapers to understand that. I have no idea where Ley is now, but this is not a terrible loss for the Allies if he died.
I heard about the "Werewolf" organization only on the radio. In the appeal to the people, it was said that the Germans should do everything possible by any means. But it was too late. It was necessary to create such an organization before the invasion of our enemies. Besides, this issue had not been coordinated with the military, which would never supply resistance members with weapons without approval. It was such a clumsy job. It is impossible to organize underground work in the rear without communication with the existing troops.
Allegedly, one of the leaders of the SS became the head of the "Werewolf," but I do not know whether he managed to do anything. I can only assume that the initiative to create such an organization belonged to Himmler or Bormann. I considered such an organization necessary and expressed my assumptions as soon as the threat from the West and East became real. I made my suggestions at the meeting. The Fuhrer was also there, he agreed with me, but nothing significant has been done. It was necessary to create secret weapons and ammunition cache in the forests, to leave the troops, which would let the enemy troops pass by and then attack them from the rear. I even offered to organize this work, but I did not get any approval.
Question: What do you know about the espionage work of Germany against the USSR?
Answer: Until the beginning of 1944, all intelligence and counterintelligence work was in the hands of Canaris. Subsequently, Himmler became involved. SS Gruppenfuhrer Schellenberg led the intelligence work. I do not know how they carried out this job in practice. I only received the results of this work, and also carried out the transfer of agents by airplanes. I was the commander-in-chief of the air forces and was not engaged in trifles. I received only requests for aircraft for the agents' delivery, and Abwehr determined the flight routes. I allocated a separate squadron for the delivery of agents, and this squadron provided airplanes according to the request of Canaris and Schellenberg. I was not interested in the results of each drop. Pilots told me about the most exciting flights. As far as I remember, they made the most extended trip to the Lake Baikal area.
Question: Do you know the location of the state archives and, in particular, the archives of the Ministry of Aviation?
Answer: The state archives ended up somewhere in Central Germany. In the second half of April, the Führer ordered to burn all files of the Ministry of Aviation. I don't know if that has been done or not.
Question: Hitler's propaganda spread rumors about a split between the Allies and us for a long time. Was there any foundation for these rumors?
Answer: Propaganda took on large dimensions, but there were no objective reasons for this. We, the military, believed that we had a single enemy. I think that this propaganda was conducted only to strengthen the will of the people to resist.
Question: What did Hitler's government hope for when the actual situation should be obvious when continuing the war?
Answer: My God, the Führer, was commander-in-chief, and he fought the war. He adhered to the absolute thesis: never to capitulate. Since Hitler continued to wage war, we had to go along. Once, he declared: "I cannot negotiate peace. I will not negotiate. If it is inevitable, Goering will do it. He understands such matters much more than I. "
Question: Did you or anyone from your circle relate to the conspiracy of July 20, 1944?
Answer: No. Of all the personnel of the air forces, only two participated in this matter, but they had left aviation long ago and served in combined arms organizations. As for me, I would never have done this and would not have raised a hand against Hitler.
Question: Is it true that the conspirators did not pursue selfish goals but wanted to overthrow the government to ease the fate of the German people?
Answer: This is not true. Conspirators pursued only personal goals, and if they had come to power, complete chaos would have occurred because they represented an unprincipled block of three completely different fractions. At that time, the military situation of Germany was not hopeless but only critical. General Staff of the Reserve Army played the most active role in the conspiracy.
Question: What do you know about the whereabouts of prominent Nazis hiding from the Allied authorities?
Answer: I don't know anything about it, and if I knew, I wouldn't have told you anyway.
Question: I am sorry, I didn't fully understand your response.
Answer: The fact is that I do not know where they are. I only know the following concerning the gauleiters: Gauleiter of East Prussia suddenly became a sailor and sailed from Konigsberg to a destination unknown. I would not be surprised if I found out that he is currently taking coal somewhere off the coast of Iceland. The British held the Gauleiters of West Prussia, Pomerania, and Danzig. Gauleiter of Mecklenburg is in prison in Neumunster. Gauleiter of Poznan went to Bavaria. I do not know where the Gauleiter of Brandenburg is.
Question: How do you personally feel about Hitler's racial theory, which he made a centerpiece of his policy?
Answer: I never shared it in such a persistent form, as was put by Hitler. As for the Jewish question, I was considered in the party circles to be a friend of the Jews since I assisted many Jewish families. Because of this, I had a lot of trouble in the party. My attitude toward Jews are well known abroad. I never believed that we are demigods; I am too earthly for that.
Question: Do you know Colonel-General Kuhl?
Answer: Yes, I know him; he was the commander of the air force in Norway.
Question: What is your opinion about him, and why was Kühl removed from the office and had to resign?
Answer: Kühl is a knowledgeable specialist; he conducted a lot of personnel training himself. He retired because he did not have sufficient combat experience, and we wanted to infuse new personnel into our air forces.
Question: In a conversation, Kuhl said that he was forced to resign after a harsh discussion with you, during which he suggested something, with which you disagreed, went berserk, and drove him out?
Answer: This is a lie. We had no such conversation. I want to meet Kühl personally to hear what else he will lie about.
Question: What can you say about using the Russian emigres and traitors to the Motherland by the Hitler government?
Answer: I can't say anything definite, as I have never been involved in this matter and was not interested in it. Rosenberg himself dealt with these issues; he created a lot of noise about it. I always believed that if people fled from their country, they were good-for-nothing there.
Question: Is it true that Hitler had doubles?
Answer: This is the real gossip. Our newspapers also wrote that Stalin had his doubles. However, I would not be surprised if Hitler had a double. It was not difficult for him to find such a person. Now, if I wanted to have a double for myself, it would be much more difficult.
Question: What secret state and party directives do you know concerning the fight against communism?
Answer: General police directives were issued during the war to maintain order. However, this was carried out through the SS and not through the State, especially during Bormann's domination. Even such a democratic leader as Churchill arrested members of parliament during the war if it was necessary. Legally, we waged only propaganda against communism, but we exercised a direct impact.
Question: What do you know about the plans by the party and the military command to destroy millions of Russians, Poles, Jews, and representatives of other nationalities in the occupied countries, and about the atrocities committed by German troops?
Answer: My God, millions are out of the question; these are pure propaganda inventions. Also, believe me, that in no case, these actions were directed against the Slavs, only against the Jews. Suppose there were individual soldiers' atrocities at the front and in the occupied countries. In that case, I assure you that none of us, state leaders, the General Staff, the government, or the party, authorized it.
I can give you some examples: one day, it became known that in Russia, during the transportation of prisoners, they suffered from massive frostbite on one train. I immediately inquired. It turned out that only a few people froze. Instructions were given to avoid such things in the future. The mass killing took place only during the uprising in the Warsaw ghetto.
I should note that Himmler was in charge of all the concentration camps, and since the police were taken away from me, I had no direct relation to this. On the contrary, I often received letters and various requests that I always sent to Himmler's office. I even put myself in trouble for doing this.
Question: What do you know about the fate of Thalmann?
Answer: Thalmann was in the Buchenwald concentration camp and died during an Allied air attack. It is known that Buchenwald had military factories, which were bombed. I don't think that they killed him because the situation didn't require this execution at all. Additionally, the report of the Buchenwald bombing came to me also through the Air Force service phone line.
Question: Was the body of Thalmann sent to the family?
Answer: I am very skeptical about this. Probably not. I can also say that from the beginning, when Thalmann had been in my charge, I asked to bring him up, and we had a brief conversation. Thalmann told me about some requirements he had concerning the conditions of his imprisonment.
Subsequently, however, the entire police passed into Himmler's care. In 1944 Thalmann's wife sent me a letter with several requests, but I had to forward this letter to Himmler.
Question: Did you take part in the burning of the Reichstag?
Answer: Never. Burning is all the work of a madman, Van Der Lubbe. Of course, it was not how the press described it; he did not have to run around the building with a torch. He laid incendiary projectiles in advance and instantly ignited everything. I have no idea how he did it. Torgler and others did not take part in this arson. But there is no doubt that the communist party was preparing a putsch at that time. The party and I personally had nothing to do with the burning of the Reichstag. We didn't need it at all. During the fire, the only thing I did was that I immediately arrived there and tried to enter the building, but there was such a horror inside that I had to leave as soon as possible because my life was more precious to me.
Question: Who did belong to your closest entourage?
Answer: My primary connections extended to the circle of generals, as well as some gauleiters, with whom I was associated, an old friendship. Among the generals were: Loerzer, Kesselring, Sperrle, Richthofen.
Of the party workers, the closest ones to me were Kerner, Buhler, Terboven, and Sauckel. However, Bormann made every effort to reduce my influence in the party and isolate me from its leadership.
Question: What do you know about Vlasov's activities? What role was he supposed to play, as well as the "Russian Liberation Army"?
Answer: From my sources, I know that Vlasov formed a committee, similar to the Seydlitz committee, and created one division, which, it seems, was brought into battle (I cannot be certain about that). I am not sure who initiated the formation of the Vlasov units. Earlier, Ribbentrop took care of Vlasov's affair and Himmler after that.
Vlasov visited me in 1945. He informed me about the conditions of his division and complained that they had not received any weapons. Vlasov asked for my support and hinted that he would suggest forming a Russian air squadron, which would be under my auspices. I rejected this suggestion. Also, the conversation raised some personal issues. I asked Vlasov in detail about Stalin, as I was very interested in this outstanding person.
The Fuhrer did not expect anything from this venture; he resolutely refused to meet Vlasov.
[Goering]
Interrogator: Colonel SMYSLOV